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Circus' At Risk of Losing Exotic Animals!

Discussion in 'The Clown Café' started by yeehaw, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. V

    V Well-Known Member

    I expect horse racing and rodeo were left out of this bill intentionally. A more narrow scope would give it more likely success of passing. Would I be disappointed that a rodeo or horse race got canned as well? Nope. Because this is a relatively specific thread, i won't open up a tirade on either of those event, but I have one for each if you'd really like to hear it.

    Not once. Barry and I both have made posts saying we recognize the loons @ PETA. The closest I can come to seeing them being "discounted" is Zippy focusing the conversation along the lines of "It isn't whether PETA sucks, it's whether Ringling sucks."

    Unless I've missed a post or forgotten a passage within, nobody has suggested PETA is completely sane.

    This is in large, the mentality that requires passage of some sort of litigation. Whether it be Jim Moran's or one down the road.

    Right. Back when were (are) ignorant of the needs of other living things. We use to put people with deformities or other maladies on parade as well. All of the above are out-of-date and with any fortune at all, animals in circus will be a thing of the past in the very near future.

    And again, the same generic argument that this entire episode, as well as everyone concerned is a member of PETA or a similar institution. It's been addressed as false, and it's still false.

    Add in an irrational argument about how animal extremists (again with PETA references) want to take away seeing eye dogs and or your personal pets and we paint everyone with the same brush (again) who favors passage of this bill.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  2. Pookie

    Pookie Well-Known Member

    So, who do you need to be or to know on this board to get such a pointless thread going for seven pages??

    Y'know, versus one that explored a very real concern of the tone of some individuals political commentary?
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  3. SCOOP

    SCOOP Ace Reporter

    as i said in my post that is my opinion and i can't be the only one

    last circus i went to there were thousands in the stand and only about 20 protesting
    so what kind of country am i living in where 20 people can make a law to stop thousands form seeing what they want to see

    if you don't like it turn the page, change the station, and don't pay a ticket leave my entertainment alone no matter what that may be

    yes you did say and barry did say that peta had extremest my point was you are making it sound like all animal trainers are extreme abusers and that just cant be
    so if you get to say not all animal lovers are extremest then i most certainly get to say not all animal trainers are abusers
  4. Barry Daft (Mr. B. Daft)

    Barry Daft (Mr. B. Daft) Old Bucket Spitter

    At least you have the guts to be honest about how you feel about this issue Scoop. Rather than the flat denial of cruelty, favoured by some, you’re happy to say you don’t mind it, because your worried about how legislation might then creep toward the activities you enjoy. I wonder how many others here, feel like that? It is a great shame that you made absolutely no effort to bother learning anything about the subject before making your post, but at least you were honest about that too. As a little thing to perhaps consider in the future. When you state opinions from a position of ignorance, don’t be surprised or get upset, if people start to think you are ignorant.

    If you had made the slightest effort to learn about the issues, you would know just how ludicrous the assumption is that animal rights activists are ever going to take away horse racing and dog ownership from Americans. Horse racing in the US is big business. Its a multi-billion dollar industry that provides work for hundreds of thousands of Americans. It’s also a major source of tax revenue for many States. It is virtually impregnable from the likes and wants of PETA. Seriously Scoop, what chance do you really think, a bunch of whackos will convince your nation that keeping a dog should be illegal? As for rodeo, it’s completely illegal in the UK and if a thread is opened on this forum asking for support on rodeos, you can pretty much guarantee my response.

    I am saddened by your stance Scoop. You acknowledge the abuse exists and then wilfully turn a blind eye to it, for your own pleasures. There is absolutely no compassion for the animals, that are abused for yours and others entertainment. There was a great deal I wanted to write about on this thread but I am loosing the will. I think this is going to be my last post here. I learned a lot over the course of this thread because I bothered to do the research, educate myself and draw conclusions from my findings. I’ve learned about the cruelty meted out to animals during training and I’ve learned about the difficulties in keeping captive wild animals. I was genuinely shocked and surprised that so many of you have a closed mind to the concept of considering animal welfare issues and most were completely unwilling to look beyond your preconceived ideas. I’ve learned something about Americans that I had never considered before and I am quite sad about it.
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  5. V

    V Well-Known Member

    Except again, both of us acknowledged this wasn't true (see specifically posts in response to Stuart). Ironic I think, that those few of us who are alleged closed-minded extremists are the only ones (with exceptions of course) that are seeing admissions and omissions on this topic; and I find humor in the zealot who points a finger away from his or her self and screams fanatic.

    Turn a blind eye to abuse. Great solution and one of the arguments that has been around for centuries. Fortunately, there are people who don't ignore everything around them. But alas, where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.

    The same kind that bans same-sex marriages because of irrational outcry. Ignorantly equates pro-choice to pro-abortion. Supports capital punishment but demonizes supports of the right to choose, or supports middle eastern countries in defiance of their government but refuse to see the right of those "occupying" America to do the same. Ultimately, it's a closed-minded country you live in that allows people the evident erroneous right of free speech and expression, but oft times the villain isn't necessarily who you expect to be, but rather roosts closer to home.
  6. SCOOP

    SCOOP Ace Reporter

    i really believe your only hearing what you want to and completely missed my key points

    proving you can't argue with extremests

    one last thing is i truly believe vegan guy as he has always felt this way.
    but barry it is my hope you truly feel the way you do as you have a history of arguing
    for the sake of pissing off as many people as you can. So if your doing this now i feel sorry for vegan guy, as he is thinking he has a true Ally in his fight. you have cried wolf just too many times.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
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  7. Plywood

    Plywood New Member

    Is it really necessary to engage in this kind of attack on everyone who doesn't agree with your views? Aren't you guilty of painting Americans with the same broad brush strokes that you so despise?
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  8. V

    V Well-Known Member

    I think that viewing this as an attack is akin to someone thinking that being called ignorant is an insult. Obviously the issues listed within share little in similarity, the point being that quips such as "what kind of country do I live in if...," are more often than not ridiculous and hypocritical. In result, the use of exaggerated examples of hypocrisy share the same virtues.

    Most people only see their argument as the right one and unfortunately that results in a closed minded or irrational discussion. I waded through two posts that seemed to be the result of either, a.) not reading the entirety of the thread, or b.) reading it but ignoring the posts out of zeal or the proverbial ''blind eye,'' that stated points that were simply not true (ie - "...peta having extremest it was discounted." "...the animal rights extremest wont take the win and go home they will fight till you can't own a dog."), and whose rationale was essentially "I don't have any evidence to support my claims, but this is how I feel..." That's great. I have zero problem with people discussing from personal belief or ideology, but when a closed-minded post is made and the only basis it carries is one from personal virtue while ignoring dialogue or discussion contrary to that stance, I don't put much stock into it.
  9. SCOOP

    SCOOP Ace Reporter

    the part about peta extremest being discounted was due to the fact you can say yeah there are those extremists but they are only a few but in the same breath your saying everyone that trains and animal is abusive why is it not possible that the abuse that goes on with animals is not the norm only the extremest. even the video Barry posted was from china
    and as far as the the, they wont take the win and go home. lets see what happens if they win this one. it may be 300 years into the future till it happens but you never know i wont say it is too far fetched!
  10. Cool Fool

    Cool Fool Clown

    Once, when my grown son was quite young, I took him to a bull fight in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. The posters proclaimed that the show that day would be presented in “The Spanish Style”. What I did not know, was that that meant the bulls would be slain before our very eyes. Usually, it turns out, in Mexico, they just harass the bejeebers out of the bull and let him live.

    Bull fighting is still quite popular in Mexico, Spain, and perhaps other countries. It is a centuries old form of entertainment. In Spain, the bulls are run through the streets to the amusement and delight (and peril) of the crowds. The population still attends in droves.

    In England, a type of dog was once bred for the specific purpose of baiting (fighting) bulls. Those dogs were used for monkey fights, rat killing contests, and even a six pack of said dogs were thrown into a ring with a full grown male lion. English Bulldogs are no longer used for such sport, that having been long outlawed by legislative action, and being shunned by the populace in general. Chasing foxes with hounds is a thing of the past, there, too, I have heard.

    There are many people that believe that the government that governs least, governs best. There are also many that believe that societies need government oversight to protect the citizens and the environment (including the flora and fauna [that means plants and animals for those of you that know no Latin] of the earth) from the evil overlords, job creators and environment ruining reapers of profit.

    No agreement is likely to be reached by those that are unable to find common ground, or common point of disagreement for all the commentary and effort thrown at it.

    I opine that, left to its own, popularity and public acceptance of animal circuses will decline to the point that they are no longer profitable and will cease to exist.

    And maybe someday, people will realize that driving high powered internal combustion engine vehicles in circles for three hours is a waste of precious fossil fuels. And paying anybody $27 million to play shortstop is a waste of money that could supply a lunch or milk program for needy children. And maybe someday schools will be funded and made better than imaginable and free college for all; and the Air Force will have to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber.

    If racism, sexism and ignorance were outlawed, there would undoubtedly still remain individuals possessing those characteristics, eh wot? There are still people that are suffering much more degradation, suffering and cruelty than the circus animals.

    What does it say about a world that turns a blind eye to child, spousal and other abuses, exploitation, genocide, and other inhumanity to man, but raises hue and cry of gargantuan proportion when it comes to animal cruelty? Neither should be tolerated. But people will continue in their ways until they decide to change on their own, or are forced by circumstance or threat.

    I will never attend another bull fight. It was quite horrific. I learned that the beef went to needy families, but the spectacle and the cruelty was more than I would like to remember. I will not attend a circus that has exotic animal acts (domestic animals, maybe).

    To each, their own. That was mine. Take what you like, leave it alone if you do not.
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  11. Plywood

    Plywood New Member

    I was not referring to your rebuttal of Scoop's arguments, but to this statement, which I quoted in my original post:

    "The same kind that bans same-sex marriages because of irrational outcry. Ignorantly equates pro-choice to pro-abortion. Supports capital punishment but demonizes supports of the right to choose, or supports middle eastern countries in defiance of their government but refuse to see the right of those "occupying" America to do the same. Ultimately, it's a closed-minded country you live in that allows people the evident erroneous right of free speech and expression, but oft times the villain isn't necessarily who you expect to be, but rather roosts closer to home."

    It doesn't matter, though. It's neither here, nor there. I'm weary of this entire thread and will leave you guys to it. See you elsewhere!
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  12. tim

    tim Have red nose, will travel

    It's actually the casinos and slot machines which will manage to take away and undermine the racetrack gambling business. Oh, wait, big money interests getting challenged by other big money interests in a shifting of attentions over the same thing to alternate outlets. Which is, ultimately, what's happening in the exotic/circus animal debate, also.

    Maybe, at the base level, things ain't so different after all.

    (At least we aren't discussing greyhounds. But, then, let's not go there.)
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  13. tim

    tim Have red nose, will travel

    Not to worry. At some point, the boys will expend all their energies (which may have been the entire effect, if not whole point of the exercise, anyway), get tuckered out, take naps, then awaken to forget about everything while they drink beer and go golfing or out to fish together!

    Then it will be time for either rugby or football (depending upon which side of the pond you reside.)
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  14. Plywood

    Plywood New Member

    Men! *humph*

    Oops, I posted again. Sorry!
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  15. V

    V Well-Known Member

  16. Barry Daft (Mr. B. Daft)

    Barry Daft (Mr. B. Daft) Old Bucket Spitter

    Gosh 2011!, I can't believe this thread is so old. Where did two years go?

    That is very good news for the elephants. Hopefully the same will happen for all the wild animal acts and not just at Ringling Bros. but throughout all of America.
  17. V

    V Well-Known Member

    Tentatively good. 3 years is a long time to have a change of mind so we'll see how this ends up. I can understand why it isn't a 'now' deadline as next seasons shows are likely all ready sculpted and include their herd. 2 additional years on top of that still seems excessive but we'll see what 2018 brings.

    In regards to the actual article - PETA and the Felds are both rather disgusting. By no means is the decision by Feld benevolent in nature (more economics by way of the success of local ordinances against exotic animals as performers), and also, the above mentioned extended timeline make celebrations a bit premature. It's equally, or moreso, disgusting that a group as shitty as PETA is beating their drums claiming responsibility and victory. I think at this stage I'd just as soon see these two groups have at it in Tina Turner's famous battle dome from decades past. ''Two men enter...''
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  18. LarryTheClown

    LarryTheClown Well-Known Member

    I have mixed feelings about this. I am 100% for the well being of animals, especially one as endangered as the elephant. However, I also know that kids tend to be bored at, say, Cirque du Soleil shows precisely because there are no animals.
  19. tim

    tim Have red nose, will travel

    Shucks. There are adults who tend to be bored at Soleil. But I don't think it is due to the lack of animals. Instead the presentation style doesn't connect with everyone.

    Different styles and expressions of circus relate to different audiences.
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  20. tim

    tim Have red nose, will travel

    D.R. Miller must be rolling over in his grave. There is a wonderful old story about when Kenneth met D.R.

    "Oh, you're the man with all those elephants!"was Mr. Feld's greeting.

    D.R. smiled and told him exactly how many more his show had over the Felds.

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